Kosher Meat, Overcoming Addiction & Mindful Bathing with Jason Wachtelhausen
I sit down with artist, musician, butcher, and writer Jason Wachtelhausen. We talk about kosher meat, mindful bathing, Todos Santos, and quitting heroin. This episode is sponsored by the state of Missouri.
Follow Jason on Instagram at @dogmuseum_
New episodes every Tuesday—plus other stuff, as inspiration dictates.
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Thank you for listening, please do it again, but louder this time.
Onefjef is produced, edited, and hosted by Jef Taylor (I also make the music).
Transcript
Voice Message: Hey, Jeff. It's me.
Speaker:Voice Message: I think I was inspired by your podcast to talk to you, but I'm
Speaker:Voice Message: on my way to an event, so this is the next best thing.
Speaker:Voice Message: Maybe.
Speaker:Voice Message: Anyway, I finally listened to your second episode of your
Speaker:Voice Message: podcast, and I thought it was interesting that Chris Casey Guy
Speaker:Voice Message: is a real hoot and quite into the mind body energy situation,
Speaker:Voice Message: which I've been thinking a little bit about, and I can tell
Speaker:Voice Message: you more about that soon.
Speaker:Voice Message: Anyway, what I wanted to tell you is you're my first friend
Speaker:Voice Message: ever to tell me that you love me, and you mentioned that in
Speaker:Voice Message: the podcast, and that's something I always think about
Speaker:Voice Message: and tell people.
Speaker:Voice Message: So I thought it was cool to hear you talk about it.
Speaker:Voice Message: Love you.
Speaker:Voice Message: Bye.
Speaker:Jef: This is the third episode of onefjef.
Speaker:Bing Bong: The number three is the first odd prime number.
Speaker:Bing Bong: Many cultures consider it a symbol of harmony and balance.
Speaker:Bing Bong: It also appears frequently in
Speaker:Bing Bong: nature, such as in the structure
Speaker:Bing Bong: of triangles.
Speaker:Jef: About a month or two ago, I was
Speaker:Jef: hanging out at a local bar right
Speaker:Jef: down the street from me here in
Speaker:Jef: Columbus, Ohio, called Dick's
Speaker:Jef: Den.
Speaker:Bing Bong: Dick's den is this iconic little
Speaker:Bing Bong: dive bar in Columbus that's
Speaker:Bing Bong: known for its live jazz and
Speaker:Bing Bong: bluegrass.
Speaker:Bing Bong: It's got a really cozy, wood paneled interior and a great
Speaker:Bing Bong: selection of drinks.
Speaker:Jef: There's a neon sign in the
Speaker:Jef: window of Dick's den that says,
Speaker:Jef: why not?
Speaker:Jef: I love that.
Speaker:Bing Bong: Today's guest is Jason Vallejo.
Speaker:Bing Bong: Need Jason Waldhausen.
Speaker:Bing Bong: When a guest is Jason Waldhausen.
Speaker:Jef: I'm standing out in the patio talking to a friend of mine.
Speaker:Jef: When I turned around and saw this guy dressed like a rock
Speaker:Jef: star smoking a cigarette.
Speaker:Jef: So I said, where'd you come from?
Speaker:Jef: And he's like, from work, man, I'm a butcher.
Speaker:Jef: And I was like, oh, my uncle was a butcher.
Speaker:Jef: So we got to talking, and I
Speaker:Jef: quickly realized that I'd
Speaker:Jef: stumbled upon one of the more
Speaker:Jef: interesting humans here in
Speaker:Jef: Columbus, Ohio.
Speaker:Bing Bong: Jason Wallhausen is a writer and artist based in Columbus, Ohio.
Speaker:Bing Bong: He has contributed to magazines like Wired and Ready Made.
Speaker:Bing Bong: He's a whole animal butcher and he's also a musician.
Speaker:Jef: I feel like I could do four or five podcasts with Jason, and
Speaker:Jef: he'd still have more to tell.
Speaker:Jef: But I'm grateful that he was
Speaker:Jef: willing to sit down and share
Speaker:Jef: some of his story with me and
Speaker:Jef: with you.
Speaker:Jef: Again, I hope that you enjoy listening to this as much as
Speaker:Jef: I've enjoyed making it.
Speaker:Jef: Thank you for listening.
Speaker:Jef: Thank you for being here.
Speaker:Jef: Here's Jason.
Speaker:Jef: How was that concert last night?
Speaker:Jef: Was it good?
Speaker:Jason: It was great.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. Yeah, it was definitely a good show.
Speaker:Jef: Are there, like, old punk rockers?
Speaker:Jason: They're up there with the very oldest.
Speaker:Jason: They are, you know, icons or,
Speaker:Jason: you know, originators of the
Speaker:Jason: punk sound.
Speaker:Jef: How old are they now?
Speaker:Jason: Uh, older than me.
Speaker:Jason: And I'm not young, so.
Speaker:Jef: So, um, Jason, what's your last name?
Speaker:Jef: I don't even know your last name.
Speaker:Jason: My full name is Jason Norvan.
Speaker:Jason: Wachtelhausen.
Speaker:Jason: And my father was from Germany.
Speaker:Jason: Right.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, my mom was from Jamaica.
Speaker:Jef: Oh, interesting.
Speaker:Jason: But my father grew up here, you
Speaker:Jason: know, since he was a baby in the
Speaker:Jason: United States.
Speaker:Jason: Um. Um, he loved black culture.
Speaker:Jason: He was very interested in it and
Speaker:Jason: impressed by it or something
Speaker:Jason: like that.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, my mom was just like a Jamaican hippie chick, and
Speaker:Jason: somehow they got together, and now everyone thinks I'm
Speaker:Jason: Dominican when they look at me.
Speaker:Jef: I didn't think you were Dominican.
Speaker:Jef: I had no idea.
Speaker:Jason: Well, in New York, everyone does.
Speaker:Jef: In New York, for sure.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, I could see that.
Speaker:Jef: Uh, so you were born in New York?
Speaker:Jason: No, I was born in Philadelphia.
Speaker:Jef: Brothers or sisters?
Speaker:Jason: Yes. I had five foster brothers and sisters.
Speaker:Jason: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: Wow.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, my brother.
Speaker:Jason: Brother.
Speaker:Jef: Your real brother and I.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. My father ended up in the,
Speaker:Jason: uh, Navy and, uh, during
Speaker:Jason: Vietnam.
Speaker:Jason: A bunch of weird shit there I
Speaker:Jason: won't get into, But, um, there
Speaker:Jason: are some bar that when they were
Speaker:Jason: in port or whatever you call it,
Speaker:Jason: and my mom was like a bar chick
Speaker:Jason: around there and played pool and
Speaker:Jason: drank beers.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: Costumes. So and, um, I remember when her telling me the story
Speaker:Jason: and she said, uh, Jason, you know, that first night when I
Speaker:Jason: met him, it was the most magical night of my life.
Speaker:Jason: It was so wonderful.
Speaker:Jason: And then I felt like I wrecked everything because I fucked him.
Speaker:Jason: I knew I shouldn't have done
Speaker:Jason: that because, guys, you know,
Speaker:Jason: they're never going to come
Speaker:Jason: back.
Speaker:Jason: And then the next time he came back around, he did come back.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, they ended up being in love.
Speaker:Jef: Right?
Speaker:Jef: Right, right.
Speaker:Jef: How long were they married?
Speaker:Jef: Were they married forever?
Speaker:Jef: Yes.
Speaker:Jason: Well, until my father died.
Speaker:Jef: Your father.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: They both wanted to have kids,
Speaker:Jason: and they tried for forever to
Speaker:Jason: have children, and it just
Speaker:Jason: wasn't working.
Speaker:Jason: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, when doctors several
Speaker:Jason: times and the doctor said, you
Speaker:Jason: know, you, uh, there's nothing
Speaker:Jason: wrong with you or with either of
Speaker:Jason: you.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: It's just, you know, not happening.
Speaker:Jason: Whatever.
Speaker:Jason: So just keep trying.
Speaker:Jason: And.
Speaker:Jason: But eventually they, uh, took in
Speaker:Jason: some foster kids and raised were
Speaker:Jason: raising them as their children,
Speaker:Jason: and they they wanted to adopt
Speaker:Jason: those kids, but the father
Speaker:Jason: wouldn't allow them to be
Speaker:Jason: adopted because he didn't want
Speaker:Jason: his kids being raised by a white
Speaker:Jason: guy.
Speaker:Jef: Oh, interesting.
Speaker:Jef: Different times.
Speaker:Jef: Different times.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. So then all of a sudden, out of the blue, my mom gets
Speaker:Jason: pregnant with me.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, one year and six months to the day later, she gives
Speaker:Jason: birth to my brother.
Speaker:Jason: This June sixteenth and December sixteenth.
Speaker:Jason: So with the five foster kids and the two of us, uh, it had been a
Speaker:Jason: really long time since they'd been on a date.
Speaker:Jason: One night, Ray Charles was playing at this dinner theater.
Speaker:Jason: They both loved Ray Charles.
Speaker:Jef: Sure. Who doesn't?
Speaker:Jason: Right.
Speaker:Jason: So they said, fuck it.
Speaker:Jason: We're going to get a babysitter to watch the kids.
Speaker:Jason: We're going to go.
Speaker:Jason: It's this girl who's babysitting Babysit it Saturdays before.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, she, uh, she was incredibly mean.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, as soon as they leave,
Speaker:Jason: she starts putting on makeup,
Speaker:Jason: and it's like, you kids better
Speaker:Jason: be good.
Speaker:Jason: I'll be back in about five hours or something like that.
Speaker:Jason: Um, as she's walking out her older brother, they lived right
Speaker:Jason: in the house next door.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: It's like coming out and confronts her about it, and
Speaker:Jason: she's adamant, and she leaves and he, um, decides he's going
Speaker:Jason: to take over for her and stay.
Speaker:Jason: Anyway, that night, um, the twins were playing with matches
Speaker:Jason: and they were burning little pieces of paper, and they were
Speaker:Jason: hiding the paper inside this cracker box that they had eaten
Speaker:Jason: the whole thing of.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, we were pretty fucking poor at the time, right?
Speaker:Jason: That was a big deal.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, they hid all the evidence under my parents bed,
Speaker:Jason: and the box started to burn.
Speaker:Jef: Right?
Speaker:Jason: And anyway, the house caught on fire and the fire was like, uh,
Speaker:Jason: you know, like, caught the next two rowhouses on fire as well.
Speaker:Jason: And, I mean, it was we lost everything.
Speaker:Jason: Everything.
Speaker:Jason: I remember this so clearly.
Speaker:Jason: I remember, like, remember the dream I was having.
Speaker:Jason: I was asleep on the couch
Speaker:Jason: downstairs, right by the front
Speaker:Jason: door.
Speaker:Jason: And this sort of looked like an alien or something like that.
Speaker:Jason: It was a fireman picked me up off the couch and took me
Speaker:Jason: outside, sat me on the sidewalk and ran back inside.
Speaker:Jason: And I was like, I don't know if you remember Time Bandits.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Okay. So that in the end, the
Speaker:Jason: very end of the film, when the
Speaker:Jason: guys, kids, parents blow up and
Speaker:Jason: all the fire trucks are going
Speaker:Jason: by, it's just it feels so much
Speaker:Jason: like.
Speaker:Jason: Exactly like how I felt.
Speaker:Jason: I was in my footie pajamas and everything like that, and, um, I
Speaker:Jason: had no idea what was going on.
Speaker:Jason: And I saw we had this white
Speaker:Jason: Toyota hatchback and, like,
Speaker:Jason: skidded around the corner and
Speaker:Jason: like, you know, you could hear
Speaker:Jason: it and everything, like show on
Speaker:Jason: TV.
Speaker:Jason: I felt like and it like screeched to a halt and before
Speaker:Jason: it was even totally stopped, my mom's door opened and she, like,
Speaker:Jason: jumped out of the car and boom!
Speaker:Jason: Just like straight landed on the concrete, completely passed out.
Speaker:Jason: My dad jumped out of the car and ran straight towards the door
Speaker:Jason: and almost got like in a physical altercation with this
Speaker:Jason: fireman that was there trying to get into the house.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: And as that was going on, the dude babysitter came out of the
Speaker:Jason: house, literally his sweater, his hair stuff was smoking, and
Speaker:Jason: he had my little brother.
Speaker:Jef: Jesus.
Speaker:Jason: Who was like, you know, no years old.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, I always think about if that girl had stayed.
Speaker:Jef: Was it in Philly?
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Wow. So what'd your parents do?
Speaker:Jef: Your dad was in the war.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. He continued to work for
Speaker:Jason: the government for the rest of
Speaker:Jason: his life.
Speaker:Jef: All right.
Speaker:Jef: And your mom.
Speaker:Jason: Is. She ran a daycare out of the house.
Speaker:Jef: Um, sounds like she loved.
Speaker:Jason: For.
Speaker:Jef: Years.
Speaker:Jason: She was amazing with kids.
Speaker:Jason: Really amazing with kids.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: And she spanked one of them on
Speaker:Jason: the legs because she pulled a
Speaker:Jason: knife on someone on the school
Speaker:Jason: bus.
Speaker:Jef: The kid did.
Speaker:Jason: The kid.
Speaker:Jef: Right?
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. And the kid called the cops.
Speaker:Jef: Mhm. Can't do that.
Speaker:Jason: My mom's not allowed.
Speaker:Jason: Allowed around kids anymore, basically.
Speaker:Jef: So do you guys get along?
Speaker:Jef: You get along with your parents?
Speaker:Jason: My dad was the best friend I ever had in my life.
Speaker:Jef: No kidding.
Speaker:Jef: I mean, I love that.
Speaker:Jason: Ever, hands down.
Speaker:Jason: Like, it was weird.
Speaker:Jason: Like, my mom and my little
Speaker:Jason: brother are just exactly the
Speaker:Jason: same.
Speaker:Jason: Like, the exact same type of people.
Speaker:Jason: They're both, like, explosive tempers and, like, full of love
Speaker:Jason: and just and, like, wonder if a big balloon can float you up.
Speaker:Jason: Like, they have a lot of weird.
Speaker:Jef: Fat.
Speaker:Jason: Weird stuff.
Speaker:Jef: Do you get along with them or not?
Speaker:Jason: Not so much.
Speaker:Jason: Get along famously.
Speaker:Jason: I mean, like we.
Speaker:Jason: I mean, it's that sort of like, opposites attract thing, right?
Speaker:Jason: You know?
Speaker:Jason: I could totally understand, like, why my dad loved my mom
Speaker:Jason: and why I understand why I love my brother so much.
Speaker:Jason: I mean, he's like the total flip side of what I would be.
Speaker:Jef: Where's your brother now?
Speaker:Jef: Is he.
Speaker:Jef: Is he around here or is he.
Speaker:Jason: He's in Vermont.
Speaker:Jef: Vermont.
Speaker:Jason: All right.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. All right.
Speaker:Jef: When you were a kid, what did you think you were going to do
Speaker:Jef: when you got older?
Speaker:Jef: Did you have any idea?
Speaker:Jason: Go to MIT.
Speaker:Jason: Oh, really?
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: That was since I was a little kid.
Speaker:Jason: That was what I wanted to do.
Speaker:Jef: To do what?
Speaker:Jef: Did you have a goal after that, or was it just.
Speaker:Jef: I want to go to particle physics.
Speaker:Jason: No.
Speaker:Jason: Really interested in, like, the idea of CERN.
Speaker:Jason: Like that.
Speaker:Jason: That was like actually going to happen.
Speaker:Jason: And they were deciding where it was going to be built and
Speaker:Jason: everything like that.
Speaker:Jason: That was in like eighty four or something like that.
Speaker:Jason: And like I was so like up to date.
Speaker:Jason: On.
Speaker:Jason: And stuff.
Speaker:Jason: And then I went to Canada and went to school there.
Speaker:Jason: They're okay.
Speaker:Jason: School in Canada was like something like in that summer.
Speaker:Jason: Like, by the end of the summer, he just couldn't wait for school
Speaker:Jason: to start again.
Speaker:Jason: No shit.
Speaker:Jason: It was so perfectly administered in so many sensible decisions
Speaker:Jason: that you don't see here.
Speaker:Jason: Um, it was amazing.
Speaker:Jason: It was one of the best chapters of my entire life.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, I moved back to the United States.
Speaker:Jason: I ended up going to four
Speaker:Jason: different high schools and
Speaker:Jason: dropped out when I was in
Speaker:Jason: eleventh grade.
Speaker:Jason: I've never been so hurt and like when I lived in Canada.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, like everyone else in the entire world until recently, I
Speaker:Jason: thought like, oh my God, I'm going back to America, the
Speaker:Jason: coolest country in the world, where everything's perfect.
Speaker:Jason: Imagine how good school is going to be there.
Speaker:Jason: And it was the biggest letdown I've ever experienced.
Speaker:Jason: I wish that I would have stuck it out and knew obviously what I
Speaker:Jason: know now, that he'd do that shit for the piece of paper.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, but learning, you know,
Speaker:Jason: in your own personal knowledge,
Speaker:Jason: is something you take on
Speaker:Jason: yourself as a pastime or
Speaker:Jason: whatever the hell you want to
Speaker:Jason: call it.
Speaker:Jef: Perspective is tricky.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah. So you drop out of high school and then what do you
Speaker:Jef: where do you end up doing?
Speaker:Jef: Where do you end up doing after you drop out?
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. Well, I was trying to figure that out.
Speaker:Jason: I moved into, um, a Krishna temple in Berkeley.
Speaker:Jason: No shit.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, for about half a year or something like that.
Speaker:Jason: And I've always been interested in religion.
Speaker:Jason: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, not I. I'm not interested in following one.
Speaker:Jason: I don't I don't believe I do believe in God.
Speaker:Jason: I do not believe in the idea of religion or spirituality.
Speaker:Jef: Not sure.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, but I find that, uh, like television commercials.
Speaker:Jason: Religion is like something that
Speaker:Jason: by studying it, it gives me a
Speaker:Jason: lot of insight into human beings
Speaker:Jason: in general.
Speaker:Jason: Right.
Speaker:Jason: And so I've always been really
Speaker:Jason: interested in it for that
Speaker:Jason: reason.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, I went there and the guy who ran the place was called
Speaker:Jason: Harry Valas an awesome guy.
Speaker:Jason: I told him that was, you know,
Speaker:Jason: I'm not planning on becoming a
Speaker:Jason: devotee of this religion or
Speaker:Jason: anything like that, but I'd love
Speaker:Jason: to live here and, you know, take
Speaker:Jason: it seriously and work with you
Speaker:Jason: guys and just see what you're,
Speaker:Jason: you know.
Speaker:Jason: Sure, sure, sure.
Speaker:Jason: Whatever.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, he was super open to it.
Speaker:Jason: And it was a wonderful experience.
Speaker:Jef: This was in the nineties, early nineties.
Speaker:Jason: Early nineties.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. But I tell you, it was in California.
Speaker:Jason: Sure.
Speaker:Jason: I was surprised to find that even within kind of like a
Speaker:Jason: religious context or whatever these people were, still, it was
Speaker:Jason: more important to them what other people thought of them
Speaker:Jason: than what they were actually doing with them.
Speaker:Jef: And you think this is a California specific thing?
Speaker:Jef: I feel like that happens everywhere.
Speaker:Jason: It happens everywhere.
Speaker:Jason: But man, I tell you, I've experienced more of it in
Speaker:Jason: California than anywhere else.
Speaker:Jason: Interesting.
Speaker:Jef: Interesting.
Speaker:Jef: Did you become a follower or did
Speaker:Jef: you just kind of like, how did
Speaker:Jef: that.
Speaker:Jason: You know, we'd wake up sometime.
Speaker:Jason: I don't know, between like three thirty and five in the morning
Speaker:Jason: and do a bathing ritual.
Speaker:Jason: And people always tried to get
Speaker:Jason: there on time because the later
Speaker:Jason: you were, the colder the water
Speaker:Jason: was for.
Speaker:Jef: Your.
Speaker:Jason: five a m bathing ritual.
Speaker:Jef: What's the bathing ritual?
Speaker:Jef: Is it just you take a bath or.
Speaker:Jason: So I think like a lot of
Speaker:Jason: religions, there's a lot of
Speaker:Jason: ritualistic shit that happens
Speaker:Jason: here.
Speaker:Jason: There's not much to it other than getting cleaned up.
Speaker:Jef: But are you bathing yourself?
Speaker:Jef: But if you're.
Speaker:Jason: Doing it with the intent of, you know, like, whatever.
Speaker:Jef: Like a mindful bathing.
Speaker:Jason: Yes, that's a good way of putting it.
Speaker:Jason: A mindful bathing.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: We would make prasadam, which was dinner.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: But again.
Speaker:Jef: There's a fancy word for it.
Speaker:Jason: Ritual.
Speaker:Jason: But it's not just the word this,
Speaker:Jason: you know, basically this you put
Speaker:Jason: your full intent into making it,
Speaker:Jason: uh, whatever.
Speaker:Jason: As close to divine as possible.
Speaker:Jason: And if you offer the food to a god, they'll eat it.
Speaker:Jason: But because they're on a
Speaker:Jason: different plane, the food
Speaker:Jason: remains.
Speaker:Jason: But now it's blessed and it's become prasadam, not dinner.
Speaker:Jason: Krishna's throughout the world aren't all what most people
Speaker:Jason: expect here, and the ones in the west coast for the most part,
Speaker:Jason: aren't the same as what you guys have experienced out here.
Speaker:Jef: I mean, yeah, I mean, that's the thing with religion.
Speaker:Jef: Every single, even Christianity
Speaker:Jef: has got eighteen thousand
Speaker:Jef: different kinds.
Speaker:Jef: And everybody's like, my kind is the right kind and your kinds,
Speaker:Jef: the dumb fucking kind heathen.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jef: So it's funny that that actually happens with accretions as well,
Speaker:Jef: although they're probably not calling each other heathens.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: I don't know.
Speaker:Jason: They're calling each other, whatever it is, it's just their
Speaker:Jason: word for heathen.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Jason: You know, and.
Speaker:Jef: So I remember when I was in college, the Christian.
Speaker:Jef: This is where you can go and get the vegan free vegan dinner.
Speaker:Jef: That was the big thing.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Jason: We used to go and feed the bums
Speaker:Jason: in people's park and before we
Speaker:Jason: ate.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: It was cool.
Speaker:Jason: And that's.
Speaker:Jason: That's where I learned to love cooking.
Speaker:Jef: Oh. That's cool.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Jef: So you leave the Krishna thing.
Speaker:Jef: Um. Any particular reason you just got tired of it?
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. I mean, I was young, I was sixteen, seventeen at the time.
Speaker:Jason: I was just itching to move on.
Speaker:Jef: Sure.
Speaker:Jason: Someplace.
Speaker:Jef: I get that.
Speaker:Jason: I don't know exactly where I went from there.
Speaker:Jason: I went up to Sacramento for a while.
Speaker:Jason: Oh, and then up to Santa Rosa.
Speaker:Jason: Did you like Northern California?
Speaker:Jason: I spent a lot of time drinking on a railroad track up there
Speaker:Jason: with some wonderful people.
Speaker:Jef: Like you were.
Speaker:Jef: We run the rails or just drink it on the tracks.
Speaker:Jason: Just drinking on.
Speaker:Jef: The on the tracks.
Speaker:Jef: And the train comes.
Speaker:Jef: You get off the tracks.
Speaker:Jef: Of course, then you get y on the tracks.
Speaker:Jef: Was that just a place people drank?
Speaker:Jason: It's a classic place to drink.
Speaker:Jason: I mean.
Speaker:Jef: I've never drank on the railroad tracks.
Speaker:Jef: I feel like I should.
Speaker:Jason: I've never walked over to the tracks.
Speaker:Jef: I've walked on the tracks.
Speaker:Jef: I've just never drank on them.
Speaker:Jason: No groups of people there drinking.
Speaker:Jef: Uh, not that I've ever seen.
Speaker:Jef: No, but, you know, maybe that's a different time.
Speaker:Jason: Maybe.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah. Could be.
Speaker:Jef: There's a lot of YouTube videos now of, like, people that you
Speaker:Jef: can learn how to actually ride the rails and, like, sneak onto
Speaker:Jef: a train and ride all the way to.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, like like like a legit hobo.
Speaker:Jason: Done some hobo.
Speaker:Jef: Oh, no. Shit. Oh, we'll get to that.
Speaker:Jason: Anyway, I eventually ended up back in Ohio.
Speaker:Jason: I came back to Columbus.
Speaker:Jef: Okay, but you had family here still?
Speaker:Jason: Yes. My mom and my brother were still here.
Speaker:Jef: Okay. So you were in Ohio before.
Speaker:Jason: After Toronto, we moved to Marion while we were having a
Speaker:Jason: house built in the fancy new suburb of Gahanna.
Speaker:Jason: We had one of, like, the first eight houses.
Speaker:Jason: So I lived in this, like, fully developed development.
Speaker:Jef: Right?
Speaker:Jef: Right, right.
Speaker:Jason: No one else in it.
Speaker:Jef: Right, right.
Speaker:Jason: For a while.
Speaker:Jason: And my mom was.
Speaker:Jason: And she went crazy after my dad died.
Speaker:Jason: I mean, they were really, really in love.
Speaker:Jason: Right, right.
Speaker:Jason: And, um.
Speaker:Jef: What's your dad die of?
Speaker:Jason: Mysterious circumstances.
Speaker:Jef: What do you think?
Speaker:Jason: I think I don't think about it that much.
Speaker:Jef: All right, fair enough.
Speaker:Jason: That much?
Speaker:Jason: But I will say this.
Speaker:Jason: I did, uh, have an offer from a
Speaker:Jason: married couple that had put out
Speaker:Jason: this UFO magazine since, like,
Speaker:Jason: the sixties or something like
Speaker:Jason: that.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, they said that they
Speaker:Jason: would pay for me to go and do
Speaker:Jason: some research into how my dad
Speaker:Jason: died.
Speaker:Jef: Oh, really?
Speaker:Jason: I'll tell you that.
Speaker:Jef: They think that he might have been abducted by an alien.
Speaker:Jef: That's awesome.
Speaker:Jef: Well, I mean, maybe he's in a better place.
Speaker:Jef: Maybe he's up there.
Speaker:Jef: Maybe he's flying around.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: You know who the fuck knows, man?
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Your mom might find him yet.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. Yeah, I imagine they'll bump into each other again.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, I think everybody does.
Speaker:Jef: Right?
Speaker:Jason: I don't know, I hope not everybody.
Speaker:Jef: Well, I mean, I think.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah. Anyway, so you're back in Ohio.
Speaker:Jason: Between going to New York every
Speaker:Jason: other, you know, month and
Speaker:Jason: living in Columbus and it being
Speaker:Jason: the nineties and being in a band
Speaker:Jason: that played its stashes all the
Speaker:Jason: time.
Speaker:Jef: Okay, I didn't know.
Speaker:Jef: How'd you get in the band?
Speaker:Jason: I don't know, I've been basically been kind of a punk
Speaker:Jason: rocker my whole life.
Speaker:Jason: Okay.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Anyway, between all that stuff I got on heroin.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, I was a heroin addict for a few years.
Speaker:Jef: How old were you when you got introduced to.
Speaker:Jef: To the heroin.
Speaker:Jason: Um, nineteen. Twenty nineteen?
Speaker:Jason: No. Yeah. No.
Speaker:Jason: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: Maybe.
Speaker:Jason: Eighteen.
Speaker:Jason: Nineteen.
Speaker:Jef: Do you remember who introduced you to it or.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. William Burroughs.
Speaker:Jef: I mean, but so.
Speaker:Jason: I sought it out.
Speaker:Jason: Nobody was.
Speaker:Jef: Like, oh, so you're.
Speaker:Jason: Reading.
Speaker:Jef: Burroughs books and you're like.
Speaker:Jason: Everyone I idolized was a fucking heroin addict.
Speaker:Jef: Sure, sure.
Speaker:Jef: That's how I got into weed.
Speaker:Jef: But.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Um, yeah.
Speaker:Jef: I just didn't take the further step.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: So you found somebody you could
Speaker:Jef: just find somebody who would
Speaker:Jef: was.
Speaker:Jason: At that time.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: And that rock and roll scene in
Speaker:Jason: Columbus, Ohio, it was pretty
Speaker:Jason: easy.
Speaker:Jef: And did you do it by yourself or did you do it with.
Speaker:Jason: All the time?
Speaker:Jason: I've.
Speaker:Jef: No. But the first time we're talking about, like, the first
Speaker:Jef: time you get it from somebody.
Speaker:Jef: Do you remember?
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. The very peculiar.
Speaker:Jason: Let's see.
Speaker:Jason: The very first time I ever did it.
Speaker:Jason: I think the very first time I
Speaker:Jason: did it, I was probably by
Speaker:Jason: myself.
Speaker:Jason: And then usually after that, I was with my girlfriend, who
Speaker:Jason: eventually became my first wife.
Speaker:Jef: Okay. So you get this heroin?
Speaker:Jef: It's what, black tar?
Speaker:Jef: Or was it like powder?
Speaker:Jason: Okay, that's what I was going to say.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: The first time I really remember coming alive from the experience
Speaker:Jason: and having the first.
Speaker:Jef: Being like, oh.
Speaker:Jason: I'm gonna be a heroin addict feeling.
Speaker:Jef: Like.
Speaker:Jason: I was visiting some friends, uh, in San Francisco, my ex-wife and
Speaker:Jason: I, and, um, they got this black tar stuff and used an eyedropper
Speaker:Jason: method where you heat it up and put it in an eyedropper and drop
Speaker:Jason: that in your nose.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh.
Speaker:Jason: Pretty fucking fun.
Speaker:Jef: I mean, better than shooting it up needles, like.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: No, no, no it's not.
Speaker:Jef: I mean, better in my in my mind
Speaker:Jef: because I'm terrified of
Speaker:Jef: needles, but.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: I can understand that.
Speaker:Jef: Right?
Speaker:Jason: It's all any way you're doing it.
Speaker:Jason: It's, uh.
Speaker:Jason: You know what?
Speaker:Jason: I've.
Speaker:Jason: I have friends to this day who are people that every once in a
Speaker:Jason: while, three or four times a year, they'll do heroin.
Speaker:Jason: They'll shoot up most of them,
Speaker:Jason: sniff it if they're going to do
Speaker:Jason: it now.
Speaker:Jason: But if you can be that kind of
Speaker:Jason: person, I highly recommend
Speaker:Jason: heroin.
Speaker:Jef: Sure, sure, if you can be that fun, if you can be that kind of
Speaker:Jef: person, It's a thing, right?
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. And I've been I quit smoking.
Speaker:Jason: I've quit everything in my life, including heroin, without ever
Speaker:Jason: going to any kind of program or anything like that.
Speaker:Jef: Right, right, right.
Speaker:Jason: I've quit everything.
Speaker:Jason: But heroin is the only one that ever.
Speaker:Jason: I'm still scared of.
Speaker:Jef: That, cause, yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Like, yeah, like, oh, I would still, like, love to fucking get
Speaker:Jason: high on heroin again.
Speaker:Jason: And I would if I knew I could do it without any repercussions.
Speaker:Jason: Repercussions?
Speaker:Jef: Sure.
Speaker:Jason: I don't feel that way about PCP.
Speaker:Jason: Oh, you know what I mean?
Speaker:Jef: Like there's another one we can dig into.
Speaker:Jef: So what does that look like?
Speaker:Jef: Like, is it you're good for a while.
Speaker:Jef: Like you're using it and you think you're kind of okay.
Speaker:Jef: And then you realize at a certain point it's using you or
Speaker:Jef: something to this effect, right?
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. Whatever.
Speaker:Jason: You could slap whatever kind of cliche in there you want.
Speaker:Jef: Right, right.
Speaker:Jason: It's going to be basically true.
Speaker:Jef: You're calling me out on that?
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: No. Yeah, it's going to be true.
Speaker:Jason: I mean, they're all that's really is, uh, it's all there is
Speaker:Jason: to it, you know, it's nothing.
Speaker:Jason: You know, eventually the lights all go out.
Speaker:Jason: Eventually you take something
Speaker:Jason: from a friend or you know you
Speaker:Jason: shouldn't have.
Speaker:Jason: And I've never, ever in my life been a thief on any level.
Speaker:Jason: Sure.
Speaker:Jason: And that's something that, uh, you know, I never outright stole
Speaker:Jason: somebody's guitar and sold it or something like that, but I
Speaker:Jason: certainly did things where I knew I was taking advantage that
Speaker:Jason: I'll never forgive myself for.
Speaker:Jef: Just to get the drug.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, yeah yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Jef: How often were you using when you were, like, in the throes?
Speaker:Jef: How much?
Speaker:Jef: How much did you use?
Speaker:Jason: Three times a day?
Speaker:Jef: Huh?
Speaker:Jef: How'd you get off the heroin?
Speaker:Jef: You were on a couple of years, you said.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. So this one was there.
Speaker:Jef: Was there a moment that.
Speaker:Jason: Yes, there was a moment.
Speaker:Jef: Of course.
Speaker:Jef: There's always a moment.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: There was.
Speaker:Jason: Well, things were getting bad
Speaker:Jason: generally, you know, in a lot of
Speaker:Jason: ways.
Speaker:Jason: And I wasn't very fun.
Speaker:Jason: Cool person anymore.
Speaker:Jef: Sure.
Speaker:Jason: Just a lot of my friends were hurt and upset.
Speaker:Jef: Eventually the drug ends up controlling you.
Speaker:Jason: It's.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, another cliche, but it's.
Speaker:Jason: It's true.
Speaker:Jason: That's what happens.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: This guy who was one of my best friends growing up who went his
Speaker:Jason: father went crazy.
Speaker:Jason: And when we were young.
Speaker:Jason: And the same thing happened to to John, my friend.
Speaker:Jef: What happened?
Speaker:Jason: He went fucking crazy.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, I mean, crazy, like, stopped using electricity.
Speaker:Jason: Didn't believe in money anymore.
Speaker:Jason: And his landlord wasn't super
Speaker:Jason: cool with either one of those
Speaker:Jason: things.
Speaker:Jef: The money one I think is probably the one that's the
Speaker:Jef: difficult one for the landlord.
Speaker:Jef: But the landlord.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, right.
Speaker:Jason: He moved back in with his mom,
Speaker:Jason: started making his own chocolate
Speaker:Jason: bars.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Gotta have a hobby, right?
Speaker:Jason: The last time I, uh, heard
Speaker:Jason: anything about him, his sister,
Speaker:Jason: who was never super fond of me,
Speaker:Jason: gave me a call to let me know
Speaker:Jason: that he had stolen his mom's car
Speaker:Jason: in Florida.
Speaker:Jason: And the last thing they heard was he was driving to New York
Speaker:Jason: to kill me.
Speaker:Jef: Wow.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. So this guy.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: Before he went crazy and wanted
Speaker:Jason: to kill me, called my mom and my
Speaker:Jason: brother who had relocated to
Speaker:Jason: Missouri.
Speaker:Jef: Because he was, like, worried about you.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: He's like, dude, he's fucked up.
Speaker:Jason: It's like.
Speaker:Jef: Because he was.
Speaker:Jason: Not him.
Speaker:Jef: Anymore.
Speaker:Jef: Right, right.
Speaker:Jason: You gotta.
Speaker:Jef: Which is ironic because he ended up going crazy himself and
Speaker:Jef: trying to kill you.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: So, I.
Speaker:Jef: Mean, life's a long road.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, but the moral of that one's obvious.
Speaker:Jason: Do drugs?
Speaker:Jef: Is that the moral?
Speaker:Jef: Let me think about that.
Speaker:Jef: We'll leave that to the listeners to decide what the
Speaker:Jef: moral of that one is.
Speaker:Jef: Uh.
Speaker:Jason: My mom and my brother.
Speaker:Jef: Brother?
Speaker:Jason: Exactly what my mom and my brother would do.
Speaker:Jason: They didn't say anything.
Speaker:Jason: And they drove from Missouri to my house ten minutes after they
Speaker:Jason: got off the phone with John.
Speaker:Jef: Because they had no idea.
Speaker:Jason: No.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: They showed up, and my brother came in with a, like, blackjack
Speaker:Jason: or whatever, ready to knock me out if he had to.
Speaker:Jason: They didn't know if I'd be crazed, like trying to fight.
Speaker:Jason: And I was like, yo, you guys are right.
Speaker:Jason: I gotta do it.
Speaker:Jason: I gotta do it.
Speaker:Jason: I probably would have done it myself if I had the cash.
Speaker:Jason: I need about two hundred bucks.
Speaker:Jason: That'll get me enough heroin to for to get us to Missouri.
Speaker:Jason: And then I won't have any when we get there.
Speaker:Jason: Okay, so let's do it.
Speaker:Jason: So just left everything in the house.
Speaker:Jason: My mom got me some heroin.
Speaker:Jason: Oh, good.
Speaker:Jason: Mom.
Speaker:Jef: And tearing up a little bit.
Speaker:Jason: Actually, we drove out there,
Speaker:Jason: and I didn't sleep for, like,
Speaker:Jason: eleven days.
Speaker:Jason: It was.
Speaker:Jason: It was.
Speaker:Jef: Bad. Yeah. Everything is.
Speaker:Jef: I've seen the movies.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, but there's there's really no explanation for.
Speaker:Jason: I mean, you cannot describe it
Speaker:Jason: to someone who hasn't gone
Speaker:Jason: through it.
Speaker:Jason: It's it's a weird kind of hell.
Speaker:Jason: But on the eleventh day, I was laying on the floor and I was
Speaker:Jason: reading this book.
Speaker:Jason: I was like some old hard boiled detective novel.
Speaker:Jef: Right, right.
Speaker:Jason: Kind of novel.
Speaker:Jason: And all of a sudden, I noticed
Speaker:Jason: the book was on my chest and I
Speaker:Jason: was like, oh, my God, I just
Speaker:Jason: fell asleep.
Speaker:Jason: And I looked at the clock and
Speaker:Jason: I'd been asleep for like forty
Speaker:Jason: five minutes.
Speaker:Jason: And I have never been so happy in my life.
Speaker:Jason: I was like, that meant like, I'm beating it.
Speaker:Jason: This is like really happening.
Speaker:Jason: Right, right, right.
Speaker:Jason: I'm not gonna feel like that forever, actually.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Sleeping. And I was really,
Speaker:Jason: like, overflowing with a kind of
Speaker:Jason: joy, and the phone rang at that
Speaker:Jason: exact minute and I picked it up
Speaker:Jason: and, uh, it was my friend
Speaker:Jason: Jasper, and I was like, oh my
Speaker:Jason: God, Jasper, you're not gonna
Speaker:Jason: believe it.
Speaker:Jason: I just want to sleep.
Speaker:Jason: This is the greatest day of my life.
Speaker:Jason: And Jasper was like, uh, yeah, Mike Dean killed J. Hit last
Speaker:Jason: night, and that was the guy I.
Speaker:Jef: Was.
Speaker:Jason: Talking about earlier.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: So you quit the heroin?
Speaker:Jef: Good job.
Speaker:Jef: You're in Missouri.
Speaker:Jason: Forever.
Speaker:Jef: For how long were you in Missouri?
Speaker:Jason: Oh, no, I mean, I quit heroin for forever.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Jason: I like and I literally, at one
Speaker:Jason: point tried it again to make
Speaker:Jason: sure I was, like, not addicted
Speaker:Jason: to it.
Speaker:Jef: That's a really.
Speaker:Jef: That's a ballsy.
Speaker:Jason: Move. Yeah. And I just sniffed it, but, um, and I had a blast
Speaker:Jason: and I fucking the next day.
Speaker:Jason: I didn't feel like any, like,
Speaker:Jason: going back or whatever, but I
Speaker:Jason: knew if I did it, I was like
Speaker:Jason: that.
Speaker:Jason: That one time will be enough.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah. Yeah. Well, good for you.
Speaker:Jason: Missouri did change my life.
Speaker:Jason: Not just getting off heroin.
Speaker:Jason: Uh, but I got a job in a chicken factory.
Speaker:Jef: Okay, okay.
Speaker:Jason: The first chicken factory I ever worked in was called Petit Jean.
Speaker:Jef: Like a butcher.
Speaker:Jef: Kind of like a, what do they call it?
Speaker:Jef: Slaughterhouse.
Speaker:Jason: As. As an actual butcher.
Speaker:Jason: Now I realize how far that is.
Speaker:Jason: But yes, it deals with.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Slaughtering and breaking down meat, basically.
Speaker:Jason: Right.
Speaker:Jason: But, um.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, I got a job, uh, at a chicken plant, peeling tenders.
Speaker:Jason: My thumbnails turned black and
Speaker:Jason: fell off, and, uh, the work was
Speaker:Jason: fucking insane, and I felt like
Speaker:Jason: I deserved it or something like
Speaker:Jason: that.
Speaker:Jason: Kind of.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh.
Speaker:Jef: How old are you?
Speaker:Jason: Uh, nineteen, I think.
Speaker:Jef: Right, right.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: And at some point there, I can't remember if it was before this
Speaker:Jason: or after that.
Speaker:Jason: But at some point in California, I married my girlfriend Laura.
Speaker:Jason: All right.
Speaker:Jason: So. And she was there, you know, she had gotten off heroin.
Speaker:Jef: She came with you to get off the heroin with you.
Speaker:Jef: Oh, okay.
Speaker:Jef: That's an interesting part.
Speaker:Jef: She was on.
Speaker:Jef: She goes, did you get her on heroin?
Speaker:Jason: It kind of just happened organically.
Speaker:Jason: I was I was never like, hey, you are married.
Speaker:Jef: You are married.
Speaker:Jef: You kind of got to do this, you know?
Speaker:Jef: I mean.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker:Jason: We did.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Those couples were.
Speaker:Jason: She was just a heroin addict type of person.
Speaker:Jason: Regardless, she ended up staying on it and doing a lot of fucked
Speaker:Jason: up things, but, uh.
Speaker:Jason: Whatever.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: Um, but the chicken factory, man, that that was amazing.
Speaker:Jason: Amazing.
Speaker:Jason: And it's amazing to me that I could handle it, but I moved on
Speaker:Jason: from there to a larger chicken factory in Buffalo, Missouri.
Speaker:Jason: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: And then I moved on to the
Speaker:Jason: granddaddy turkey factory in
Speaker:Jason: Springfield.
Speaker:Jef: Oh, your career's taken off.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: And at that point, I was
Speaker:Jason: drinking two bottles of gin a
Speaker:Jason: day.
Speaker:Jef: Oh.
Speaker:Jason: To to fit in.
Speaker:Jef: I guess there was a lot of
Speaker:Jef: drinking going on at the chicken
Speaker:Jef: factory.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. There was.
Speaker:Jason: Missouri also is like, uh, I've been a lot of places I. And I
Speaker:Jason: never really thought you could actually hate a place.
Speaker:Jason: Especially when it's so beautiful as Missouri.
Speaker:Jason: But there's something wrong with it there.
Speaker:Jason: It's like it makes people into
Speaker:Jason: weird, bitter, pinched up husks
Speaker:Jason: of people.
Speaker:Jef: Interesting.
Speaker:Jef: I never heard that.
Speaker:Jef: Well, I mean, I know a few people from Missouri.
Speaker:Jef: They don't.
Speaker:Jef: I mean, I'm sure there's exceptions, but.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, if you stay, I guess these people.
Speaker:Jason: Know there are people in Saint Louis and stuff like that.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, really.
Speaker:Jason: I guess what I'm talking about is the Ozarks and that southern.
Speaker:Jef: Right?
Speaker:Jef: Right, right right right, right.
Speaker:Jason: Part of it I've never seen like, this level of, like, willful
Speaker:Jason: ignorance and just, you know, like girls had, like, genital
Speaker:Jason: warts down to their ankles until you explain to them that, like,
Speaker:Jason: you can just go to the doctor and they just never knew.
Speaker:Jason: It's fucking it's seriously sad.
Speaker:Jef: Right, right, right.
Speaker:Jef: That's truly a little bit of a little bit of like sex education
Speaker:Jef: or something like explaining down to your ankles, though.
Speaker:Jef: That's got to be a long like,
Speaker:Jef: I've never heard of that shit
Speaker:Jef: before.
Speaker:Jason: The specific girl I'm thinking of was one of the smartest
Speaker:Jason: people I met in Missouri.
Speaker:Jef: And she's the one who has the
Speaker:Jef: genital warts down to the
Speaker:Jef: ankles.
Speaker:Jason: That she had had them.
Speaker:Jason: You know, she.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, that had happened to her.
Speaker:Jason: And because she just didn't
Speaker:Jason: know, like she said, that I had
Speaker:Jason: no idea.
Speaker:Jef: So smart in some ways.
Speaker:Jef: Not smart in other ways.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: Well, ignorant.
Speaker:Jason: You know what I mean?
Speaker:Jason: Smart but ignorant.
Speaker:Jason: You know you can't put the facts together.
Speaker:Jason: I guess if you don't have the
Speaker:Jason: facts, no matter how smart you
Speaker:Jason: are.
Speaker:Jef: I mean, I'd be like, why the
Speaker:Jef: fuck are there warts all over my
Speaker:Jef: pussy?
Speaker:Jason: But she was.
Speaker:Jason: She just thought, like everyone else there does is there's
Speaker:Jason: something wrong with her.
Speaker:Jef: Specifically a lot of genital warts in Missouri then?
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Like, is it like.
Speaker:Jef: Of course.
Speaker:Jef: Duh.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: They used to have it on the license plate.
Speaker:Jef: The genital wart state, I think.
Speaker:Jason: You know, they also right around the corner from where we lived
Speaker:Jason: was Macks Creek.
Speaker:Jason: Awesome softball team.
Speaker:Jef: All right.
Speaker:Jason: But the highest, um, incest rate in the country.
Speaker:Jason: Wow.
Speaker:Jason: Dead.
Speaker:Jason: Seriously?
Speaker:Jason: Basically, the town is a family, and they got busted because
Speaker:Jason: there's a police station there or something like that.
Speaker:Jason: They changed a federal law because these guys, like ninety
Speaker:Jason: eight percent of the income for the entire town, was coming from
Speaker:Jason: the speed trap that they set up and just giving people tickets.
Speaker:Jef: There's a lot of these in Ohio, too.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. Well, this was I don't
Speaker:Jason: know exactly how that scam works
Speaker:Jason: or whatever, but it was the
Speaker:Jason: entire town and they were all
Speaker:Jason: related and they had a great
Speaker:Jason: softball team.
Speaker:Jef: So this episode is sponsored by the state of Missouri.
Speaker:Jef: Go for the incest.
Speaker:Jef: Stay for the genital warts.
Speaker:Jason: And anyway, the whole thing that
Speaker:Jason: happened there was I started
Speaker:Jason: working on Saturdays doing that
Speaker:Jason: job where I'd hook the freshly
Speaker:Jason: dead turkeys and they'd spray
Speaker:Jason: out shit onto my neck or chin
Speaker:Jason: usually.
Speaker:Jason: But I was doing that because
Speaker:Jason: this guy had a white blazer, uh,
Speaker:Jason: that he would sell me pretty
Speaker:Jason: cheap.
Speaker:Jason: And my wife's birthday was coming up.
Speaker:Jef: Okay?
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, I was like, oh, that's so cool.
Speaker:Jason: It'll be perfect.
Speaker:Jason: You know, and, uh, I did it, you know, worked through the whole
Speaker:Jason: summer or whatever the hell it was and, uh, got the car and
Speaker:Jason: everything and brought it home on her birthday and, uh, drove
Speaker:Jason: it home from work or whatever.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, she walked out of the house, and I was, like, handed
Speaker:Jason: her the keys, and she was like, oh, my God, this is so perfect
Speaker:Jason: because I'm leaving you.
Speaker:Jason: And literally left that night.
Speaker:Jef: Took the car.
Speaker:Jason: Took the car, took my dog.
Speaker:Jef: Jesus Christ, dude, I would
Speaker:Jef: like, did you ever think you
Speaker:Jef: can't have it if you're leaving
Speaker:Jef: me?
Speaker:Jef: This is not like.
Speaker:Jason: It's not something I would think, right?
Speaker:Jason: I mean, I love things like, I like having shit around, but I
Speaker:Jason: don't really care about things when something like that
Speaker:Jason: happens, I was.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, right.
Speaker:Jef: Fair enough.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: But, uh, pissed off about it now.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Hindsight.
Speaker:Jef: Hindsight.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Jason: So as a result of that, I decided that Missouri just had
Speaker:Jason: too many bad memories for me.
Speaker:Jason: Sure.
Speaker:Jef: Like genital warts and the.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jef: Time to go.
Speaker:Jason: From Missouri to Minneapolis.
Speaker:Jason: Moved in with a couple of old friends.
Speaker:Jason: Uh, from here, from Columbus.
Speaker:Jason: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: I continued, uh, working in
Speaker:Jason: meat, and I ended up managing a
Speaker:Jason: Whole Foods meat department for
Speaker:Jason: a while.
Speaker:Jason: And then I moved on to this place called The Wedge.
Speaker:Jason: That was like, uh, the biggest
Speaker:Jason: food co-op in the United States
Speaker:Jason: until, you know, two thousand or
Speaker:Jason: something like that in the
Speaker:Jason: sixties.
Speaker:Jason: It had been there consistently
Speaker:Jason: super famous place, like, uh,
Speaker:Jason: Prince's wife shopped there all
Speaker:Jason: the time.
Speaker:Jason: Tiny Tim in his last days was
Speaker:Jason: like one of my main kind of
Speaker:Jason: clients.
Speaker:Jason: No shit.
Speaker:Jason: We.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Discusses diet a lot.
Speaker:Jason: And his wife continued, uh, you
Speaker:Jason: know, coming in after he died
Speaker:Jason: and everything.
Speaker:Jef: That's crazy.
Speaker:Jason: Laura Dern would come in, Uh, I
Speaker:Jason: remember Fugazi came in one
Speaker:Jason: time.
Speaker:Jason: That was pretty awesome.
Speaker:Jason: So, yeah, people like it was a pretty famous place.
Speaker:Jason: It was a Minnesota or whatever.
Speaker:Jason: I got a girlfriend who worked
Speaker:Jason: there named Sarah, and, uh, she
Speaker:Jason: had studied Spanish stuff,
Speaker:Jason: culture and language her entire
Speaker:Jason: life, and she wanted to go to
Speaker:Jason: Guatemala.
Speaker:Jason: And we decided, okay, let's do that.
Speaker:Jason: So we saved up for whatever a while, and we put away maybe ten
Speaker:Jason: grand or something like that.
Speaker:Jason: Okay, so we flew.
Speaker:Jason: It was the first time I'd had money again in a while.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, we flew my mom out to Isla mujeres, which is a little
Speaker:Jason: island off the coast of Cancun.
Speaker:Jason: You're flying to Cancun?
Speaker:Jason: It's not a Cancun type place.
Speaker:Jason: It's.
Speaker:Jason: It used to be wonderful.
Speaker:Jason: I don't know what it's like now.
Speaker:Jason: Right.
Speaker:Jason: We partied there with her for an unforgettable week.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, then from there, we just started.
Speaker:Jason: Sarah and I just started
Speaker:Jason: traveling south and ended up
Speaker:Jason: going through, um, you know, the
Speaker:Jason: rest of Mexico, through Belize,
Speaker:Jason: Ease.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, then from Punta Gorda,
Speaker:Jason: Belize, we took a boat, uh, to
Speaker:Jason: Livingston, Guatemala.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: It's probably where, like, ninety percent of the black
Speaker:Jason: population of Guatemala lives.
Speaker:Jason: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, it's been about six months there.
Speaker:Jason: And then from there, we moved to Guatemala City for a while.
Speaker:Jason: And then from there we went to Todos Santos.
Speaker:Jason: And Todos Santos is, uh, on the west coast of Guatemala, way up
Speaker:Jason: in the mountains, nine thousand two hundred feet, and lived
Speaker:Jason: there for about a year.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: And it was it was like living in Indiana Jones.
Speaker:Jason: I don't even know where you would begin there.
Speaker:Jason: There's there's a thing they
Speaker:Jason: have there called the Cajal,
Speaker:Jason: which is this box of papers and
Speaker:Jason: stuff like that that allegedly
Speaker:Jason: came over with the
Speaker:Jason: conquistadors.
Speaker:Jason: But there's like stuff written
Speaker:Jason: on skin and all this, like,
Speaker:Jason: weird stuff.
Speaker:Jason: And it's very, very selective about who gets to see it.
Speaker:Jason: The people have tried to steal it back to the United States a
Speaker:Jason: bunch of times.
Speaker:Jason: The Smithsonian allegedly has had people there basically
Speaker:Jason: trying to take this thing.
Speaker:Jason: Wow.
Speaker:Jason: I got to see that, which was a real honor.
Speaker:Jason: That's cool.
Speaker:Jason: Amazing.
Speaker:Jason: And like all of these meetings and stuff like that would happen
Speaker:Jason: in like, a dirt floor wooden shack with a fire in it, you
Speaker:Jason: know, on a chilly night, drinking aguardiente and banana.
Speaker:Jason: Or whatever.
Speaker:Jason: With these guys.
Speaker:Jason: It was super magical living there.
Speaker:Jason: There's a famous horse race that
Speaker:Jason: happens there every year that,
Speaker:Jason: um, basically all the men go to
Speaker:Jason: the coast.
Speaker:Jason: I have no idea what they do.
Speaker:Jason: I never made it to the coast,
Speaker:Jason: but they go to the coast and
Speaker:Jason: work.
Speaker:Jason: That's what everyone says.
Speaker:Jason: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: You know, my husband's at the coast working.
Speaker:Jason: Come in.
Speaker:Jason: But, um, they, uh, come back in
Speaker:Jason: November for the day of the dead
Speaker:Jason: celebration, and that's their
Speaker:Jason: huge holiday.
Speaker:Jason: And so there's, like, three celebrations right in a row.
Speaker:Jason: And one of them is this horse
Speaker:Jason: race and the horse race is a one
Speaker:Jason: hundred yards or something like
Speaker:Jason: that.
Speaker:Jason: But it's back and forth and each time you get to the finish line,
Speaker:Jason: you have to drink a shot of quetzal tequila and you go back
Speaker:Jason: and do the same thing.
Speaker:Jason: The year I was there was the first time no one died during
Speaker:Jason: the race, but there were some serious, serious injuries.
Speaker:Jef: So they're on the horse drinking while they're on the horse.
Speaker:Jason: Or they they go cross the finish line, drink, turn around, go
Speaker:Jason: back, cross the finish line.
Speaker:Jef: But they sit on the horse the whole time.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: They never get off the horse.
Speaker:Jef: Right?
Speaker:Jason: In fact, most of them tie themselves to the horse.
Speaker:Jef: Jesus.
Speaker:Jason: Christ.
Speaker:Jason: And uh, which is one of the things that's resulted in a.
Speaker:Jef: Lot that would do it, the.
Speaker:Jason: Deaths and stuff like that.
Speaker:Jason: They, uh, use a rooster for their riding crop.
Speaker:Jason: They tie the rooster's legs to their wrist so the rooster is
Speaker:Jason: tied to them, a live rooster, and that's what they use.
Speaker:Jason: And they spend all the money that they've made at the coast.
Speaker:Jason: Uh.
Speaker:Jason: Or doing whatever every family buys a cow.
Speaker:Jason: That's like mandatory.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, that's partnered up and whatever for feasts.
Speaker:Jef: Right?
Speaker:Jason: Over the course of that week.
Speaker:Jason: And then the guys all have the tailors there are famous.
Speaker:Jason: They're most famous for this fabric that they make there.
Speaker:Jason: The guys have these insanely
Speaker:Jason: elaborate sort of conquistador
Speaker:Jason: disco outfits.
Speaker:Jef: Made sure.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: And that's it.
Speaker:Jason: And everyone's broke again.
Speaker:Jason: And all the men go back to the coast, huh?
Speaker:Jef: And that's life.
Speaker:Jason: They do it all again.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Wow.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: I was a coordinator for a school
Speaker:Jason: they had up there called El
Speaker:Jason: Proyecto Linguistico de Espanol
Speaker:Jason: Imam.
Speaker:Jason: See, they've.
Speaker:Jason: Never had a written language up there.
Speaker:Jason: Mom is the name of the language.
Speaker:Jason: They've never had a written.
Speaker:Jason: So it's like tribal peoples.
Speaker:Jason: They're indigenous people, right?
Speaker:Jef: Indigenous.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. You know.
Speaker:Jason: None of the existing alphabets work for some of the intricacies
Speaker:Jason: of the language.
Speaker:Jason: Sure it is.
Speaker:Jason: It's a weird one, I remember.
Speaker:Jason: OCS.
Speaker:Jason: Which means.
Speaker:Jason: May I have a cigarette?
Speaker:Jef: Oh, you got that one down.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: And they accepted you as if,
Speaker:Jef: like you, you were accepted in
Speaker:Jef: their friend groups and
Speaker:Jef: whatever, or.
Speaker:Jason: I'm just not an idiot.
Speaker:Jason: And I understand how people work.
Speaker:Jason: So, yeah.
Speaker:Jason: They accepted me really well.
Speaker:Jason: But there was an incident very
Speaker:Jason: shortly after I left, within a
Speaker:Jason: month after I left, where a
Speaker:Jason: couple of Japanese tourists were
Speaker:Jason: killed, like ten minutes after
Speaker:Jason: getting off the bus they had
Speaker:Jason: gotten.
Speaker:Jason: They had made so many mistakes that they had.
Speaker:Jason: There was like a mob riot and they killed this.
Speaker:Jef: Jesus.
Speaker:Jason: Christ.
Speaker:Jason: Uh, woman and her husband.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, basically the whole
Speaker:Jason: thing started because the woman
Speaker:Jason: got off the bus and immediately
Speaker:Jason: saw, like, some little kid
Speaker:Jason: walking around.
Speaker:Jason: I was like, oh, he's so cute.
Speaker:Jason: And picked him up.
Speaker:Jason: And the biggest fear they have of Americans especially.
Speaker:Jason: But anyone foreign, right, is
Speaker:Jason: that you're there to steal their
Speaker:Jason: children's organs.
Speaker:Jason: Oh, I don't know where that came
Speaker:Jason: from, but they they believe it
Speaker:Jason: totally.
Speaker:Jason: And this, like, foreign looking
Speaker:Jason: person jumped off and grabbed a
Speaker:Jason: kid immediately and it just
Speaker:Jason: exploded.
Speaker:Jason: They both ended up dead.
Speaker:Jason: Wow.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Hey. Yeah. Yeah. Are you still with the woman at this time?
Speaker:Jason: Oh, no. She met some guy, and I
Speaker:Jason: remember the guy had a moped,
Speaker:Jason: too.
Speaker:Jason: It's pretty cool.
Speaker:Jef: Sweet.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, he scooted her out of town and.
Speaker:Jef: Scooted her out of town.
Speaker:Jason: I left the school.
Speaker:Jason: I met a kind of a big group of people.
Speaker:Jason: We traveled around to the rest of, uh, Central America mostly,
Speaker:Jason: and had some amazing adventures.
Speaker:Jef: Good times.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Lots of fun, man.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: Lots of fun.
Speaker:Jason: Then, uh, along the way, I acquired this dog that was a,
Speaker:Jason: uh, a Dogo Argentino, which is.
Speaker:Jason: I don't know if you know him or not, but they're big dogs.
Speaker:Jason: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: They're, like, all white, super short hair.
Speaker:Jason: People always mix them up with pit bulls.
Speaker:Jason: I was in the way, way tenango this town.
Speaker:Jason: I walked by a pet shop and they had a litter.
Speaker:Jason: And there was this one that was
Speaker:Jason: like, looked like a little rat,
Speaker:Jason: like, laying all splayed out by
Speaker:Jason: himself.
Speaker:Jason: And I was like, oh, what's going to happen to that one?
Speaker:Jason: And the guy was like, I'll probably drown him.
Speaker:Jason: And I was like, oh, I'll take him then.
Speaker:Jason: And he was like, all right, seven thousand quetzales, which
Speaker:Jason: is thirteen dollars or whatever.
Speaker:Jason: And I was like, fuck it, okay.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: So I bought him and he was so
Speaker:Jason: little, he used to, I used to
Speaker:Jason: carry him in a bag for a long
Speaker:Jason: time.
Speaker:Jason: He would fit in that bag.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, we started hitchhiking and we hitchhiked from San Jose,
Speaker:Jason: Costa Rica to Phoenix, Arizona.
Speaker:Jef: Wow.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, it was pretty awesome.
Speaker:Jef: With the dog.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah. What was the dog's name?
Speaker:Jason: Clavo. Clavo.
Speaker:Jason: And everyone always made a joke about that because they use a
Speaker:Jason: lot of diminutives and demonstratives and the way they
Speaker:Jason: speak, they're right.
Speaker:Jef: Right, right.
Speaker:Jason: And so everyone always said, oh, right now he's a Tito.
Speaker:Jason: Like just a little clavo.
Speaker:Jason: Clavo means nail, okay?
Speaker:Jason: But it's also slang for problem.
Speaker:Jason: And they're like, you know, eventually he's going to become
Speaker:Jason: a cloud clavo.
Speaker:Jef: That's a good.
Speaker:Jason: Name. A clavo like a huge.
Speaker:Jef: Right, right, right.
Speaker:Jason: It happened.
Speaker:Jef: Right?
Speaker:Jef: Well, it's a good name in that case.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. He was a great dog.
Speaker:Jef: So you get to Phoenix.
Speaker:Jason: Get to Phoenix, go to California.
Speaker:Jason: Right?
Speaker:Jason: My grandmother dies in Ohio, in Marion, Ohio.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, drive back for that funeral.
Speaker:Jason: Stay here for about six months.
Speaker:Jason: Go to New York.
Speaker:Jason: Really?
Speaker:Jason: At this point, like, it's very culture shock being back in the
Speaker:Jason: United States at all.
Speaker:Jef: And you were gone for, what, two or three years?
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: And New York was just overload.
Speaker:Jason: And I went from there.
Speaker:Jason: I texted a friend or called a friend who, um, had crashed on
Speaker:Jason: my couch in Minneapolis for about a year and was like, I got
Speaker:Jason: to get out of New York.
Speaker:Jason: My friend lived in Vermont.
Speaker:Jason: I went up there, uh, to stay with him.
Speaker:Jason: And if you're ever coming back
Speaker:Jason: from Guatemala and feel culture
Speaker:Jason: shock, Vermont is really you
Speaker:Jason: know.
Speaker:Jef: I think Vermont is good for a
Speaker:Jef: lot of different kind of things,
Speaker:Jef: I think.
Speaker:Jef: It's just a chill place to.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, there's some Soul
Speaker:Jason: killingly awful things about it,
Speaker:Jason: I think, as well, but it's
Speaker:Jason: mostly.
Speaker:Jef: You can say that about almost anywhere.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, sure.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Um, yeah.
Speaker:Jason: State of Vermont for a while.
Speaker:Jason: Opened up a record store.
Speaker:Jason: My little brother flew out to help me run it.
Speaker:Jason: Fell in love with Vermont.
Speaker:Jason: He still lives there now.
Speaker:Jason: Mhm.
Speaker:Jason: And he met this girl.
Speaker:Jason: Had a real textbook affair.
Speaker:Jason: Her husband was like a super rich dude and stuff like that.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, eventually she left him and we got married.
Speaker:Jef: How long did it take for like, so she's cheating on her husband
Speaker:Jef: for a while.
Speaker:Jef: But how long did it take from the beginning of the affair to
Speaker:Jef: the leaving the guy?
Speaker:Jason: Well, when we started, I think we kind of, like, made, like, if
Speaker:Jason: this is still going on in two years, we gotta get together.
Speaker:Jason: And then it became a year and a half and then a year, I think it
Speaker:Jason: was about eight months.
Speaker:Jef: And the husband never knew.
Speaker:Jason: We got together, never knew
Speaker:Jason: until I drove her up to
Speaker:Jason: Montreal, um, because he was at
Speaker:Jason: their Montreal house at the
Speaker:Jason: time.
Speaker:Jason: and, uh, or he was coming back there from some overseas trip.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: So she we went back to Montreal the day before.
Speaker:Jason: I helped her pack all her shit
Speaker:Jason: up, and then I went and sat in a
Speaker:Jason: bar while she waited for him to
Speaker:Jason: come home.
Speaker:Jason: And she was like, I'm leaving.
Speaker:Jason: You came down and met me at the bar and threw all her shit in
Speaker:Jason: the car and left.
Speaker:Jef: Wow.
Speaker:Jason: And stayed together for twenty two years.
Speaker:Jason: Something like that.
Speaker:Jef: Wow.
Speaker:Jason: No shit.
Speaker:Jason: No, no, no. Sorry.
Speaker:Jason: Longer than that.
Speaker:Jason: Longer than that.
Speaker:Jason: Because my daughter is twenty two now, so.
Speaker:Jason: Wow.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, when she got pregnant, I didn't want my kid to be
Speaker:Jason: raised in Vermont.
Speaker:Jason: And I did want my kid to be raised in New York.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, we ended up in Washington Heights, which is probably about
Speaker:Jason: as tough as you're going to get in New York.
Speaker:Jef: Back then anyway.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Still, still.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah. It's cleaned up quite a bit.
Speaker:Jason: Oh, yeah.
Speaker:Jason: I mean, before I got there, it was really.
Speaker:Jason: That's what they shoot cops up there era.
Speaker:Jef: Even Harlem's like, cleaned up quite a bit.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Right before I left New York, I
Speaker:Jason: was in Harlem right on one
Speaker:Jason: hundred and tenth and Second
Speaker:Jason: Avenue.
Speaker:Jef: I was right.
Speaker:Jef: I think we talked about this.
Speaker:Jef: That was right near there.
Speaker:Jef: I was on in East Harlem at, uh, what was it, one hundred and
Speaker:Jef: sixteenth between second and first and second?
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: That's right.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: I remember they were calling it spa.
Speaker:Jef: They were trying to rebrand
Speaker:Jef: Spanish Harlem into spa back
Speaker:Jef: then.
Speaker:Jef: Oh my God.
Speaker:Jef: It didn't take.
Speaker:Jef: It didn't take?
Speaker:Jef: No, no. There was a spa cafe near us, which was just like,
Speaker:Jef: what are you doing?
Speaker:Jef: What are you doing?
Speaker:Jef: Spa.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: So you're raising the kid in, uh, in Washington Heights?
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. And I, you know, I'd gotten rid of the record store.
Speaker:Jason: My wife was a medical professional.
Speaker:Jason: She, uh, you know, her career was really moving forward.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: I sold the record store, and I spent.
Speaker:Jason: I said, I'm going to spend the
Speaker:Jason: first two years of our
Speaker:Jason: daughter's life with her every
Speaker:Jason: single day.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: And I did.
Speaker:Jef: Sure.
Speaker:Jason: For two years, man, we would every single day.
Speaker:Jason: Like, while she was learning how to talk and everything would
Speaker:Jason: just walk around New York City.
Speaker:Jason: We'd go to Central Park every day.
Speaker:Jason: We'd go to, you know, took her to the met and, like, all that
Speaker:Jason: kind of stuff.
Speaker:Jason: And she's a very sophisticated young woman, a great palate.
Speaker:Jason: She loves to eat and she loves to cook.
Speaker:Jason: Tons of.
Speaker:Jef: Fun. She's still in New York.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Right on.
Speaker:Jason: I continued butchering during this whole time, getting better
Speaker:Jason: and better and better.
Speaker:Jason: And New York.
Speaker:Jason: I ended up working at a place
Speaker:Jason: called Harlem Shambles, which at
Speaker:Jason: the time was arguably one of the
Speaker:Jason: three best butcher shops in the
Speaker:Jason: country.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, you know, we had a lot of press and stuff like that.
Speaker:Jason: Sure.
Speaker:Jason: A lot of interviews.
Speaker:Jason: I used to speak at, you know, school events all the time and
Speaker:Jason: things like that.
Speaker:Jason: It was.
Speaker:Jason: It was wonderful.
Speaker:Jason: Like, finally.
Speaker:Jason: Like dealing.
Speaker:Jason: I mean, we bought cows.
Speaker:Jason: That was it.
Speaker:Jason: That's how the job worked.
Speaker:Jason: We bought cows, we took them apart.
Speaker:Jason: We aged everything.
Speaker:Jason: It was one of the greatest honors in my life.
Speaker:Jef: It's also cool that, like, this
Speaker:Jef: thing that kind of started as a
Speaker:Jef: fluke, in a way, in Minneapolis
Speaker:Jef: kind of came full circle and,
Speaker:Jef: uh.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Well, I just became so obsessed
Speaker:Jason: with the anatomy of the animal
Speaker:Jason: and learning it and just how,
Speaker:Jason: uh, how the insights you can
Speaker:Jason: get, you know, like your muscles
Speaker:Jason: are exactly the same as, uh,
Speaker:Jason: cows, except for your
Speaker:Jason: collarbone.
Speaker:Jason: Sure.
Speaker:Jason: A whale is the same.
Speaker:Jason: You know, I can take apart any mammal now.
Speaker:Jason: And I understand the way, uh,
Speaker:Jason: you know, that all of it
Speaker:Jason: functions together, and it's
Speaker:Jason: just fascinating.
Speaker:Jef: Right?
Speaker:Jason: And. And I was good at it.
Speaker:Jason: I really, really enjoyed it.
Speaker:Jef: Interesting that your your your ex-wife's also in, like, the
Speaker:Jef: medical field, which is kind of a weird connection in a way.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: I always refer to myself now
Speaker:Jason: when I'm in pain, I'm always
Speaker:Jason: thinking of my eye round hurts
Speaker:Jason: or my flat irons killing me like
Speaker:Jason: you start seeing all those cuts
Speaker:Jason: and everything.
Speaker:Jef: Rump roast is sore today.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Jef: How long were you there for?
Speaker:Jef: Ten years.
Speaker:Jef: Fifteen years?
Speaker:Jason: We moved there when Lila was less than one.
Speaker:Jason: And I moved away seven months ago or whatever.
Speaker:Jef: Oh, seven months ago.
Speaker:Jef: All right.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. So we were there for
Speaker:Jason: twenty, I think twenty one years
Speaker:Jason: total.
Speaker:Jef: Wow. A lot of changes in those twenty one years.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. And obviously, I mean, I've worked with the gallery
Speaker:Jason: during the time I was there.
Speaker:Jason: I was in a great band called Ace Falcon while I was there and got
Speaker:Jason: to do a million amazing shows.
Speaker:Jason: And one of the other things I
Speaker:Jason: always wanted to do was, uh, I
Speaker:Jason: went and learned kosher
Speaker:Jason: butchering in Crown Heights in a
Speaker:Jason: totally Hasidic, you know,
Speaker:Jason: neighborhood.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, it was an amazing experience.
Speaker:Jason: I definitely came away from it feeling that, uh, you know,
Speaker:Jason: kosher meat is basically exactly as dumb and wasteful as I
Speaker:Jason: thought it was.
Speaker:Jason: But the process is so fascinating.
Speaker:Jason: And the one thing that I respect
Speaker:Jason: them for being able to do more
Speaker:Jason: than anything else, because
Speaker:Jason: almost no one else can do this
Speaker:Jason: anymore.
Speaker:Jason: Like they hone their knives to a
Speaker:Jason: sharpness that is something
Speaker:Jason: you've never experienced in your
Speaker:Jason: life.
Speaker:Jason: Because if the cow flinches and you have to kill it by cutting
Speaker:Jason: its throat, Okay.
Speaker:Jason: And if the cow flinches at all.
Speaker:Jason: If the cow knows it's dying, you throw it away.
Speaker:Jef: Wow.
Speaker:Jason: They throw it away.
Speaker:Jason: It's just you don't touch it.
Speaker:Jef: And do they throw away a lot of cows?
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. And you know what I would do?
Speaker:Jason: Buy them for one dollar.
Speaker:Jason: As long as I could transport.
Speaker:Jef: Them for sure, they'd.
Speaker:Jason: Sell them to me for one dollar, and I'd take them to another
Speaker:Jason: shop and either give it to all the guys or, like, use it for
Speaker:Jason: lessons or, um, you know.
Speaker:Jef: That's fucking.
Speaker:Jef: It makes me a little angry, you know?
Speaker:Jef: Do your kosher thing, but you're just wasting life, really.
Speaker:Jef: You're just tossing away.
Speaker:Jason: Well, it's not like there's a
Speaker:Jason: shitload of food to go around
Speaker:Jason: for everybody on the planet
Speaker:Jason: right.
Speaker:Jef: Now.
Speaker:Jason: Either.
Speaker:Jason: And every cow that they that they touch, they throw away all
Speaker:Jason: of the good part.
Speaker:Jef: No shit.
Speaker:Jason: There's no tenderloin.
Speaker:Jason: There's no, you know, all that stuff from the.
Speaker:Jef: What do they do?
Speaker:Jef: They what do they even eat?
Speaker:Jason: The shoulder.
Speaker:Jef: That's it.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah. Interesting.
Speaker:Jason: Well, more than anything, it was
Speaker:Jason: just an amazing experience to,
Speaker:Jason: like, be with all these guys
Speaker:Jason: that were big, like, members of
Speaker:Jason: the community, to see how the
Speaker:Jason: community functioned in general
Speaker:Jason: was fascinating.
Speaker:Jason: The whole thing is set up to keep people and money completely
Speaker:Jason: within the community.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: And it works.
Speaker:Jef: Is it like this is Hasidic community?
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Giant hats and.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: Ropes and all that.
Speaker:Jason: Everything.
Speaker:Jef: I mean, they also, like, use more social services than almost
Speaker:Jef: any population in the city.
Speaker:Jef: Like, there's a good and a bad side to the whole thing.
Speaker:Jef: But like the stories that I hear
Speaker:Jef: about the drain on social
Speaker:Jef: services and so forth and
Speaker:Jef: welfare.
Speaker:Jef: I mean, there's a lot.
Speaker:Jason: More into the bad category for me because as well as a lot of
Speaker:Jason: it works, it's so non-inclusive or whatever, you know?
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: And it's, um, yeah, it just turns it into something that's
Speaker:Jason: kind of ugly.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, but it is a thing that if
Speaker:Jason: the world thought like that,
Speaker:Jason: things would be like if the
Speaker:Jason: world thought like that, in
Speaker:Jason: terms of being a community, the
Speaker:Jason: way they view themselves as a
Speaker:Jason: community, you know, it would be
Speaker:Jason: amazing.
Speaker:Jason: It could work.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Because it's not really based on just taking advantage of people
Speaker:Jason: or anything like that.
Speaker:Jason: It's, uh, certainly taking advantage of a good deal.
Speaker:Jef: And you can't really leave.
Speaker:Jef: I mean, there's a lot of downsides to that community, but
Speaker:Jef: certainly I hear you on the community community part.
Speaker:Jason: You're drunken brother always has a job there.
Speaker:Jason: Doesn't matter.
Speaker:Jason: And they know that they're just
Speaker:Jason: going to bounce them from this
Speaker:Jason: person to this person, and he's
Speaker:Jason: going to end up stealing some
Speaker:Jason: from there.
Speaker:Jason: And they're going to bounce from this person.
Speaker:Jason: But guaranteed.
Speaker:Jef: Always going to have a place.
Speaker:Jason: Always have, always have a place to go.
Speaker:Jason: And it just kind of works out mathematically well.
Speaker:Jef: Like they also they also like
Speaker:Jef: reproduce at a higher rate than
Speaker:Jef: almost any population in the
Speaker:Jef: country.
Speaker:Jef: Like that's like their whole
Speaker:Jef: thing is to just to keep having
Speaker:Jef: babies vaccinating.
Speaker:Jef: Well I mean, they've gone I mean, I've heard stories of
Speaker:Jef: them, like going out in New York and going to cities like upstate
Speaker:Jef: and like reproducing to a degree, and then eventually just
Speaker:Jef: taking over the whole town of the city council and stuff.
Speaker:Jef: Like, that's the thing.
Speaker:Jef: It's a complicated it's a So.
Speaker:Jason: Seems like a lot of people are catching on to the I have a
Speaker:Jason: bunch of babies idea and use them to take over.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Well, they're doing it real well.
Speaker:Jef: They're doing it real well.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker:Jason: But I was there for the beef and it was, uh.
Speaker:Jason: That experience was cool.
Speaker:Jef: Is there a story or a or a a memory like that was like the
Speaker:Jef: most fucked up or whatever story that you that you in the time of
Speaker:Jef: your time in New York, one.
Speaker:Jason: Of the crazier ones that just comes to mind.
Speaker:Jason: And this probably isn't anywhere
Speaker:Jason: near the craziest, but my wife,
Speaker:Jason: she, uh, was incredible at her
Speaker:Jason: job and for some reason, like,
Speaker:Jason: she really cared about working
Speaker:Jason: with, um, gay populations, poor
Speaker:Jason: people, immigrants, things like
Speaker:Jason: that, and really has dedicated
Speaker:Jason: her life to it and just done
Speaker:Jason: amazing work.
Speaker:Jason: But, um, our house in Washington Heights for about ten years was
Speaker:Jason: the hospital for people that were going to get deported if
Speaker:Jason: they went to the hospital.
Speaker:Jason: And we had a chick die there one night and literally just seemed
Speaker:Jason: to revive her.
Speaker:Jason: She had gotten coke and heroin mixed up or something like that.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, she left in the morning, like, still didn't even
Speaker:Jason: know where she was.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Or whatever.
Speaker:Jason: But finally, when we felt comfortable saying, take her the
Speaker:Jason: fuck out of here.
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, two days later, I came home from work and there was
Speaker:Jason: this black box sitting in front of the door, and it was a big,
Speaker:Jason: giant tiramisu with a note that said, thanks for saving my life.
Speaker:Jason: I'll, uh, I.
Speaker:Jef: Mean, I guess I guess tiramisu is good.
Speaker:Jef: As good as good a price for that as anything, right?
Speaker:Jef: Why not?
Speaker:Jef: It was the best.
Speaker:Jef: I wonder if she thought about it and was like, well, what's the
Speaker:Jef: what's a good gift for somebody who actually saved my life?
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Wow.
Speaker:Jef: How long was she?
Speaker:Jef: How was she?
Speaker:Jason: I mean, she was like, just her heart stopped or something.
Speaker:Jef: Right, right.
Speaker:Jason: But it.
Speaker:Jef: Was. Wow. That's nuts.
Speaker:Jason: It was scary.
Speaker:Jason: I mean, because it was the one
Speaker:Jason: that we almost were like, we got
Speaker:Jason: to call the ambulance at this
Speaker:Jason: point.
Speaker:Jef: But then she would have been deported.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. Oh, gosh.
Speaker:Jason: They had a scam.
Speaker:Jason: Where?
Speaker:Jason: When?
Speaker:Jason: This used to mean something.
Speaker:Jason: I don't know if it means anything and the government
Speaker:Jason: anymore, but where they would marry people, like they had the
Speaker:Jason: whole thing where, like marrying people to gain citizenship.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Start the process or whatever.
Speaker:Jason: And, like, you know, Caroline
Speaker:Jason: has been married to three or
Speaker:Jason: four people, you know, like, you
Speaker:Jason: gotta stay married for a few
Speaker:Jason: years.
Speaker:Jef: Right or right, and they come and check and everything.
Speaker:Jef: There was a whole Gerard Depardieu movie about that
Speaker:Jef: called Green Card.
Speaker:Jef: It was awful.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Anyway, yeah, that's my phone reference.
Speaker:Jef: Throwing it in there for you.
Speaker:Jason: Just reminded me of something, actually, that chick Sarah that
Speaker:Jason: I went to Guatemala with.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Super smart.
Speaker:Jef: Sure.
Speaker:Jason: But if she didn't remember
Speaker:Jason: something, she would always come
Speaker:Jason: up with, like, the most
Speaker:Jason: ridiculous cliches.
Speaker:Jason: And we were.
Speaker:Jason: When we were living in Guatemala City, we went to the movies
Speaker:Jason: almost every single day.
Speaker:Jason: It was twenty five cents.
Speaker:Jef: Sweet.
Speaker:Jason: It's another good way of trying to learn Spanish.
Speaker:Jef: Absolutely.
Speaker:Jason: And we were trying to remember Gerard Depardieu name, and I've
Speaker:Jason: never forgotten her saying, like, I know it's something like
Speaker:Jason: Jean Paul Bordeaux.
Speaker:Jef: Jean Paul Bordeaux. Well, I mean, the French parts in there.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: You know.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: I think he got canceled too, because he sexually something
Speaker:Jef: with, you know.
Speaker:Jason: People are fucking weird, man.
Speaker:Jef: I mean, you dig, you dig enough into anybody's thing.
Speaker:Jef: I think you can find some darkness.
Speaker:Jef: Um, but.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, I suppose it's true.
Speaker:Jef: You know, everybody's got dirt in their past.
Speaker:Jason: But people are pretty fucking weird, man.
Speaker:Jef: There's a lot.
Speaker:Jef: Of stuff that people do that I'm like.
Speaker:Jason: That's how you got in trouble.
Speaker:Jason: You or weird.
Speaker:Jef: But, I mean, existing on its own is pretty weird.
Speaker:Jef: And the older I get, the more the existence part of the whole
Speaker:Jef: thing that we're even here becomes more of a trip to me.
Speaker:Jef: Like, the more I realize what actually is happening.
Speaker:Jef: I'm more blown away by the fact that it's happening at all, if
Speaker:Jef: that makes sense.
Speaker:Jason: Certainly.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jef: Like how strange it is to be
Speaker:Jef: anything at all in this entire
Speaker:Jef: weird universe that we've ended
Speaker:Jef: up not to get too esoteric, But,
Speaker:Jef: like.
Speaker:Jason: Do you ever listen to Neutral Milk Hotel?
Speaker:Jef: Dude, that's where I came.
Speaker:Jef: That's the lines from there.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, the lines from there.
Speaker:Jason: Big fan.
Speaker:Jason: So there's a book about them.
Speaker:Jason: Mhm.
Speaker:Jason: I'm in it.
Speaker:Jason: No shit.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah I've got.
Speaker:Jef: Like thirty three and a third book.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: It's that one.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Because we, uh, we spent a lot of time together.
Speaker:Jef: No shit.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. Yeah, for a while.
Speaker:Jason: And just talk about interesting guys, man.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, I saw Jeff Magnum at bam years ago.
Speaker:Jef: I cried, I cried.
Speaker:Jef: Um.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Dude, love their shit.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. Yeah, those they're great stuff.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah. I remember when I first heard that album.
Speaker:Jef: A friend of mine played it for
Speaker:Jef: me, and I was like, what the
Speaker:Jef: fuck is this fucking nonsense
Speaker:Jef: noise?
Speaker:Jef: And then I listened to it again.
Speaker:Jef: I was like, all right, there's something more.
Speaker:Jef: It took a while to get it, and then once you get it, I was
Speaker:Jef: like, oh, all right, I see what's happening here.
Speaker:Jef: There's there's magic and joy within.
Speaker:Jason: Magic.
Speaker:Jef: And just joy.
Speaker:Jef: So what went wrong in New York?
Speaker:Jef: So you with the wife for twenty, twenty two years, twenty years,
Speaker:Jef: whatever it is.
Speaker:Jef: And, uh, is that why you left New York?
Speaker:Jason: Just in my eye.
Speaker:Jason: My wife had been talking about it for a while.
Speaker:Jason: I mean, she's certainly not a very faithful person, and, uh.
Speaker:Jef: Okay.
Speaker:Jason: You know, whatever.
Speaker:Jason: We both love her.
Speaker:Jason: Sure.
Speaker:Jason: You know.
Speaker:Jef: Who doesn't?
Speaker:Jason: We felt like, you know, Lila was grown up, our daughter, and we
Speaker:Jason: did a fucking rad job.
Speaker:Jason: You know what I mean?
Speaker:Jason: We raised like an amazing kid.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, are both in some ways,
Speaker:Jason: contributing to the world in a
Speaker:Jason: way that we both feel, you know,
Speaker:Jason: happy with.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, realize, you know, we're just still young enough to
Speaker:Jason: just have a whole nother life.
Speaker:Jason: And we're still great, great friends, you know?
Speaker:Jason: And, uh, I can't imagine ever being a time that we don't spend
Speaker:Jason: some time together.
Speaker:Jef: So it was just like a mutual.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: Thing.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: And it's just.
Speaker:Jef: Beautiful, actually.
Speaker:Jason: Different. Uh. Yeah. Adventures.
Speaker:Jef: And that's why you left New York or.
Speaker:Jason: Well, no. That was.
Speaker:Jason: Okay, so that was about a few years before I left.
Speaker:Jason: Actually, we we were separated
Speaker:Jason: in a city together for, yeah, I
Speaker:Jason: guess three years or something
Speaker:Jason: like that.
Speaker:Jason: And we still there's certain
Speaker:Jason: parties that we do every year,
Speaker:Jason: um, that we continue getting
Speaker:Jason: together to do the parties and
Speaker:Jason: stuff like that and got together
Speaker:Jason: with the woman I'm with now,
Speaker:Jason: Frankie.
Speaker:Jason: Amazing.
Speaker:Jason: Tons of fun.
Speaker:Jason: Very.
Speaker:Jason: The exact opposite of Jess.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: And, um, we were trying to decide if we wanted to sign
Speaker:Jason: another lease, and we'd been thinking about going to Vegas,
Speaker:Jason: and, um, eventually, I was like, you know, she's never seen
Speaker:Jason: America at all.
Speaker:Jason: She's like, in Russia till she was ten or so.
Speaker:Jef: She's Russian.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah. Okay. And, uh, I was like,
Speaker:Jason: you know, it's kind of sucks a
Speaker:Jason: lot, but, um, if there's any
Speaker:Jason: place where it's kind of cool,
Speaker:Jason: it's Columbus, Ohio, and I think
Speaker:Jason: it'd be super awesome there and
Speaker:Jason: see what's going on after thirty
Speaker:Jason: years away.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: And then we got, uh, the very
Speaker:Jason: first apartment I ever had in my
Speaker:Jason: life.
Speaker:Jason: When I was sixteen years old, we moved back in.
Speaker:Jef: Back into it.
Speaker:Jef: Right.
Speaker:Jason: And so when that happened, it felt like, uh.
Speaker:Jason: well, circle of life or this is
Speaker:Jason: really supposed to be happening
Speaker:Jason: or something.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah. And how's it been?
Speaker:Jason: It's wonderful, I'd say.
Speaker:Jason: I mean, I've really enjoyed it.
Speaker:Jason: I've been to some cool shows.
Speaker:Jason: I've bumped into a lot of old people.
Speaker:Jason: Sure.
Speaker:Jason: Bumped into some kids that,
Speaker:Jason: like, knew me, like, in a
Speaker:Jason: legendary way.
Speaker:Jason: Like they were in sixth grade when I was in high school.
Speaker:Jason: Kind of kind of thing.
Speaker:Jason: And they were.
Speaker:Jef: Like.
Speaker:Jason: forty year old men, like, oh my God, you did whatever stupid
Speaker:Jason: thing we did.
Speaker:Jef: Do you think you'll be in Columbus for a while or what?
Speaker:Jef: Are you what are you thinking?
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, I can imagine being here for five years.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, I've been here six years.
Speaker:Jef: I'm starting to get a little stir crazy.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: I never imagined I'd come back
Speaker:Jef: to Ohio, and it just kind of
Speaker:Jef: happened.
Speaker:Jef: And, uh.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, I'm getting a little bit antsy.
Speaker:Jason: Sure. Nothing is, uh, a crisis here?
Speaker:Jef: No, no.
Speaker:Jason: Everything is a crisis in New York.
Speaker:Jef: Right?
Speaker:Jef: No, I get that for sure.
Speaker:Jef: And I kind of miss.
Speaker:Jef: Part of me misses the crisis thing a little bit.
Speaker:Jef: Life is very easy here, and I feel like my neurosis is just it
Speaker:Jef: kind of thrives a little bit with a little bit of chaos.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jef: You know what I mean?
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, one hundred percent.
Speaker:Jason: I know what you mean.
Speaker:Jason: I'm missing it.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: The reason why I say five years
Speaker:Jason: is I can't imagine myself being
Speaker:Jason: away from New York for more than
Speaker:Jason: five years.
Speaker:Jef: Oh, you want to go back to New York?
Speaker:Jason: It's the greatest city on Earth.
Speaker:Jason: Just if you live there non-stop and never, ever leave, it's.
Speaker:Jef: Well, you turn into a fucking psychopath in a way.
Speaker:Jason: It's just not.
Speaker:Jason: It's not a good thing.
Speaker:Jason: And there that city is.
Speaker:Jason: I always feel like if you're not
Speaker:Jason: going to the museums, you're not
Speaker:Jason: taking advantage of all the
Speaker:Jason: amazing things that the city has
Speaker:Jason: to offer.
Speaker:Jason: Then why in the fuck are you paying the rent?
Speaker:Jef: That's the thing.
Speaker:Jef: I couldn't afford to go to the take advantage.
Speaker:Jef: I mean, when I was living there, I realized towards the end I was
Speaker:Jef: there for ten years.
Speaker:Jef: I realized, like, I can't really
Speaker:Jef: even afford to do most of the
Speaker:Jef: things that New York offers
Speaker:Jef: because it was too fucking
Speaker:Jef: expensive.
Speaker:Jef: Like, I wasn't making.
Speaker:Jason: Anything about New York. I fucking for ten, twelve years.
Speaker:Jason: I never paid for a show, I never paid for a drink.
Speaker:Jason: And New York works like that in a way that.
Speaker:Jason: like this.
Speaker:Jason: People are totally foreign to the idea of like, I work in a
Speaker:Jason: photocopier place so I can get you cheap photocopies.
Speaker:Jason: If you can give me a deal on beef or whatever.
Speaker:Jason: That's that's how everything is done.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, I never got I was working
Speaker:Jef: in the editing industry, and I
Speaker:Jef: never really felt that there was
Speaker:Jef: a there was never a, you know,
Speaker:Jef: uh, not that I didn't get, you
Speaker:Jef: know, jobs from friends and so
Speaker:Jef: forth and so on, but it was
Speaker:Jef: always just kind of a feast or
Speaker:Jef: famine thing.
Speaker:Jef: And, uh, and yeah, it just got exhausting.
Speaker:Jef: But, uh, so, um, before we go, I have one last question.
Speaker:Jef: What do you think happens after
Speaker:Jef: we die when this is all over
Speaker:Jef: that question?
Speaker:Jason: To have that question is the most obvious thing in the world.
Speaker:Jason: It is for people, for sure.
Speaker:Jason: In general, you understand why
Speaker:Jason: that question has always been
Speaker:Jason: here.
Speaker:Jason: And I feel like some of the greatest minds, probably, that
Speaker:Jason: have lived on Earth, have devoted a lot of their time into
Speaker:Jason: trying to puzzle that out.
Speaker:Jef: Um.
Speaker:Jason: And I think that that is one of the saddest, dumbest wastes of
Speaker:Jason: time that has ever happened because everyone has the answer.
Speaker:Jason: You don't know.
Speaker:Jason: You're not allowed to know.
Speaker:Jason: You're not gonna know.
Speaker:Jason: And you wait and find out.
Speaker:Jason: That's it.
Speaker:Jef: Sure. But I'm not saying there's any knowledge of it.
Speaker:Jef: I'm asking for a hypothesis.
Speaker:Jason: I don't why would I have one?
Speaker:Jason: That's the whole thing is not knowing.
Speaker:Jason: People are so uncomfortable with saying that.
Speaker:Jason: The answer to something sometimes is I don't know.
Speaker:Jef: Particularly that question, though.
Speaker:Jef: I mean, I think that there's a
Speaker:Jef: lot of questions that saying I
Speaker:Jef: don't know to is different, but
Speaker:Jef: like, this is why a lot of
Speaker:Jef: religions exist, because like,
Speaker:Jef: people are uncomfortable with
Speaker:Jef: the idea of not knowing what
Speaker:Jef: happens.
Speaker:Jef: So you have to have a story.
Speaker:Jason: That's not all.
Speaker:Jason: They're also uncomfortable with
Speaker:Jason: themselves in a way that won't
Speaker:Jason: allow them to believe their own
Speaker:Jason: feelings.
Speaker:Jason: So they fucking fall for some dumb ass religion where you're
Speaker:Jason: allowing someone else to dictate what you think about heaven and
Speaker:Jason: God and everything.
Speaker:Jef: That is how you cut your meat.
Speaker:Jason: So obvious, childish and ridiculous.
Speaker:Jason: It's just like foot stamping
Speaker:Jason: anger to be like, I want to
Speaker:Jason: know.
Speaker:Jason: It's just.
Speaker:Jason: I can't wait to find out.
Speaker:Jef: So how do you really feel about it?
Speaker:Jason: I'm serious.
Speaker:Jason: I've been thinking about this
Speaker:Jason: since I was in before
Speaker:Jason: kindergarten.
Speaker:Jason: I cannot wait to die.
Speaker:Jason: But I'm really also excited to have the chance to be alive.
Speaker:Jason: Like, everything that happens is
Speaker:Jason: because for some reason, I got
Speaker:Jason: this chance.
Speaker:Jason: And hopefully after I die, I'll
Speaker:Jason: find out a little bit more about
Speaker:Jason: all that.
Speaker:Jason: I really hope so.
Speaker:Jef: For sure.
Speaker:Jason: In my heart, I believe there's something.
Speaker:Jef: No, I really do.
Speaker:Jef: I kind of.
Speaker:Jason: I don't, I don't know.
Speaker:Jef: And I consciousness is so complicated.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah.
Speaker:Jason: Make a hypothesis about that.
Speaker:Jef: Fair enough.
Speaker:Jef: Where are you, though?
Speaker:Jef: Spiritually.
Speaker:Jef: Like, where's your spirituality lie these days?
Speaker:Jason: You know, I I've picked up bits
Speaker:Jason: and pieces from everything, you
Speaker:Jason: know.
Speaker:Jason: I still find mantras are very helpful for me, which is
Speaker:Jason: something that's big in Hindu faith and everything like that.
Speaker:Jason: Those are just little things that, again, that help me kind
Speaker:Jason: of get along with living.
Speaker:Jason: My spirituality begins and ends
Speaker:Jason: pretty much with pretty much
Speaker:Jason: with.
Speaker:Jason: I, I, I really think there's something I really believe that.
Speaker:Jason: But there's facts and there's beliefs and like so many people
Speaker:Jason: get confused and think their beliefs are facts.
Speaker:Jason: And that's when it never works.
Speaker:Jef: Where we ended up, where in the world we're in right now.
Speaker:Jason: And the more complex the belief,
Speaker:Jason: I think the more problematic it
Speaker:Jason: is if you think of it as a as a
Speaker:Jason: fact.
Speaker:Jason: So religion obviously has very complicated and complex causes,
Speaker:Jason: a million problems.
Speaker:Jason: And I feel pretty comfortable with like, I think something's
Speaker:Jason: going to happen.
Speaker:Jason: I'm not sure, but I can't wait to find out.
Speaker:Jason: And that's as far as I'll allow
Speaker:Jason: myself to even think down those
Speaker:Jason: lines.
Speaker:Jef: Jason, thanks so much for doing this, man.
Speaker:Jef: No problem.
Speaker:Jason: Yeah, it was a nice time.
Speaker:Jef: Yeah, dude.
Speaker:Jef: Thanks, man.
Speaker:Jef: And there you go.
Speaker:Jef: A little piece of the
Speaker:Jef: fascinating life of Jason
Speaker:Jef: Wachtelhausen.
Speaker:Jef: You can follow Jason on Instagram at underscore.
Speaker:Jef: That's d o e m underscore.
Speaker:Jef: You can follow me on Instagram at onefjef and you can email the
Speaker:Jef: podcast at onefjef@gmail.com And I also hope you will like, rate,
Speaker:Jef: review and subscribe on whatever platform you happen to be
Speaker:Jef: consuming this on.
Speaker:Jef: And again, thank you for listening.
Speaker:Jef: I hope you enjoyed it.
Speaker:Jef: If you did enjoy it, I hope you'll listen to it again just a
Speaker:Jef: little bit louder, perhaps in a different environment, maybe in
Speaker:Jef: the car this time, maybe washing dishes, I don't know, you pick.
Speaker:Jef: If you do listen to it in your
Speaker:Jef: car, I recommend you turn it up
Speaker:Jef: very loud and roll the windows
Speaker:Jef: down just so everybody else can
Speaker:Jef: hear.
Speaker:Jef: And if somebody says to you, what are you listening to?
Speaker:Jef: You say what?
Speaker:Jef: And then they yell again, what are you listening to?
Speaker:Jef: And then you say what?
Speaker:Jef: And then they say, turn the turn it down.
Speaker:Jef: So you pause it and they say, what are you listening to?
Speaker:Jef: And you say, oh, I'm listening to one, Jeff.
Speaker:Dad: Very good.
Speaker:Dad: Jeffrey.
